George Bernard Shaw anticipated the current state of political discourse in the United States:
“The longer I live, the more convinced am I that this planet is being used by other planets as a lunatic asylum.”
Up is down; right is wrong; left is right: common riots are equivalent to an attack on Congress while in session to certify the results of a Presidential election; and, of course, Trump is a victim.
ic1983, I agree that the GBS quote is appropriate, we just see the same quote from different perspectives. We have criminals, some of whom are prosecuted and some of whom are not. Our Republic touts "Equal Justice Under Law" - it is etched over the entrance of our Supreme Court. Yet our government, and/or states, cities and municipalities, are deciding that some people are above the law and some who are bound by it.
While I believe that DJT was the object of unfairness, I consider the nation to be the victim. Some members of congress and most of the media just plain lied and tried to overturn an election.
I have tried law suits for more than 43 years now. When I hear someone, like Schiff, say he has evidence that DJT colluded with the Russians,I expect to see that evidence. I still have not seen it. Just like when I hear DJT saying he has evidence that could change the election, I expect to see it. I have not seen that evidence, either.
Neither of us will change the others' mind on this, so I see no reason to continue this. This country is as divided on this as we are. Hopefully, something will happen to bridge this divide or I do fear anther Civil War. Best wishes to you.
" It appears that the only fatality was that of an unarmed woman, an Air Force veteran who was shot and killed in the Capitol." What does being an "Air Force veteran" have to do with her behavior. (Maybe she was following the chain of command? Did she wave her DD214 discharge papers?) The scene at an entry to the capital chamber: "...this creates a crucial gap that allows rioters to smash in the glass. It’s 2:44 p.m., and behind the door, a police officer draws his handgun. Babbitt vaults into the window and the officer shoots her once."
What does being an "Air Force veteran" have to do with her behavior.
I simply identified her. It has nothing to do with her death.
Maybe she was following the chain of command?
I may be mistaken, but I am under the impression that retired members of the military are no longer in the chain command.
Did she wave her DD214 discharge papers?
No, she did not have anything in her hands. I suppose I should have identified her as an unarmed Air Force veteran.
The scene at an entry to the capital chamber: "...this creates a crucial gap that allows rioters to smash in the glass. It’s 2:44 p.m., and behind the door, a police officer draws his handgun. Babbitt vaults into the window and the officer shoots her once."
Babbitt vaults One of the reasons I rarely read the ny times is because of the slant they put on things. I have watched the video of Babbitt's death. It appears to me that she was being assisted into the window. Before she entered the next room she was shot point blank and fell backwards. It seems to me that this armed armed officer could have detained this unarmed woman once she was in the room. I suppose that does not bother a lot of people.
"While I believe that DJT was the object of unfairness, I consider the nation to be the victim. Some members of congress and most of the media just plain lied and tried to overturn an election."
Most of the media did not lie and try to turn the election. The Trump stations did (Most of Fox, OAN, etc.) and the Trump congress members did. You and I are biased just by what we watch and read. Ruling out the (Trump's failing NY Times for example). My refusing to watch Fox News for example. We are divided as you stated because, as you said nothing I say will change your mind and vise a versa. I find it convenient though that you change the argument to the George Floyd riots rather than addressing the break-in to our Capitol. I understand that rioters should be prosecuted, but the insurrection should be addressed on its own. Did you support our beloved Senators voting down a commission to find out what caused it? George Floyd riots, Adam Schiff, officer could have handled Babbitt differently. Counter arguments and "what about what they did" syndrome. I know it changes nothing counselor.
What does being an "Air Force veteran" have to do with her behavior.
I simply identified her. It has nothing to do with her death. Could have been “former HS student.” Could have been “32 year old tennis player.” Nope—use the “veteran” angle to engender a reaction.
Maybe she was following the chain of command?
I may be mistaken, but I am under the impression that retired members of the military are no longer in the chain command. Maybe she forgot that.
Did she wave her DD214 discharge papers?
No, she did not have anything in her hands. I suppose I should have identified her as an unarmed Air Force veteran. Unarmed trespasser.
The scene at an entry to the capital chamber: "...this creates a crucial gap that allows rioters to smash in the glass. It’s 2:44 p.m., and behind the door, a police officer draws his handgun. Babbitt vaults into the window and the officer shoots her once."
Babbitt vaults One of the reasons I rarely read the ny times is because of the slant they put on things. I have watched the video of Babbitt's death. It appears to me that she was being assisted into the window. Before she entered the next room she was shot point blank and fell backwards. Look again.It seems to me that this armed armed officer could have detained this unarmed woman once she was in the room. With 40+ others? I suppose that does not bother a lot of people.
1. Trump was receptive to a Campaign national security adviser’s (George Papadopoulos) pursuit of a back channel to Putin.
2. Kremlin operatives provided the Campaign a preview of the Russian plan to distribute stolen emails.
3. The Trump Campaign chairman and deputy chairman (Paul Manafort and Rick Gates) knowingly shared internal polling data and information on battleground states with a Russian spy; and the Campaign chairman worked with the Russian spy on a pro-Russia “peace” plan for Ukraine.
4. The Trump Campaign chairman periodically shared internal polling data with the Russian spy with the expectation it would be shared with Putin-linked oligarch, Oleg Deripaska.
5. Trump Campaign chairman Manafort expected Trump’s winning the presidency would mean Deripaska would want to use Manafort to advance Deripaska’s interests in the United States and elsewhere.
6. Trump Tower meeting: (1) On receiving an email offering derogatory information on Clinton coming from a Russian government official, Donald Trump Jr. “appears to have accepted that offer;” (2) members of the Campaign discussed the Trump Tower meeting beforehand; (3) Donald Trump Jr. told the Russians during the meeting that Trump could revisit the issue of the Magnitsky Act if elected.
7. A Trump Campaign official told the Special Counsel he “felt obliged to object” to a GOP Platform change on Ukraine because it contradicted Trump’s wishes; however, the investigation did not establish that Gordon was directed by Trump.
8. Russian military hackers may have followed Trump’s July 27, 2016 public statement “Russia if you’re listening …” within hours by targeting Clinton’s personal office for the first time.
9. Trump requested campaign affiliates to get Clinton’s emails, which resulted in an individual apparently acting in coordination with the Campaign claiming to have successfully contacted Russian hackers.
10. The Trump Campaign—and Trump personally—appeared to have advanced knowledge of future WikiLeaks releases.
11. The Trump Campaign coordinated campaign-related public communications based on future WikiLeaks releases.
12. Michael Cohen, on behalf of the Trump Organization, brokered a secret deal for a Trump Tower Moscow project directly involving Putin’s inner circle, at least until June 2016.
13. During the presidential transition, Jared Kushner and Eric Prince engaged in secret back channel communications with Russian agents. (1) Kushner suggested to the Russian Ambassador that they use a secure communication line from within the Russian Embassy to speak with Russian Generals; and (2) Prince and Kushner’s friend Rick Gerson conducted secret back channel meetings with a Putin agent to develop a plan for U.S.-Russian relations.
14. During the presidential transition, in coordination with other members of the Transition Team, Michael Flynn spoke with the Russian Ambassador to prevent a tit for tat Russian response to the Obama administration’s imposition of sanctions for election interference; the Russians agreed not to retaliate saying they wanted a good relationship with the incoming administration.
Chels, I am sorry that I missed your post, I did not mean to ignore it.
I find it convenient though that you change the argument to the George Floyd riots rather than addressing the break-in to our Capitol.
I believe that I said that anyone who wrongfully entered the Capitol should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and to the extent that they are found guilty of an attempted coup they are guilty of treason which is punishable by death.
This thread has become quite uncomfortable for me - not because I do not believe my point to be proper, but because I am arguing with people I consider my brother Gael fans. Isn't that exactly what the Civil War was about - brother fighting brother? It's what I mentioned in my first post in this thread, it is time for moderates to get things in order. This thread is a microcosm of the divisiveness in our country right now. I hope something can be done before it's too late.
Just so I understand, it's OK to shoot and kill an unarmed trespasser in this country now?
The window she was going through could accommodate one person at a time. There was more than one officer in the room.
When that person is involved in an insurrection that aims to stop the certification of a presidential election, yes that traitor may be shot.
I marvel at the restraint shown by the Capital and Metro police officers while under attack, and while they were defending our Congress.
I believe in facts based on verifiable evidence. Those facts demonstrate that our democracy was under assault on January 6th, and is still under assault by those who cover up, make excuses for, or engage in “what about” to cover up a lie.
Hmmm, I took a quick peek at the Constitution and did not see a due process exception for a traitor. I thought even people accused of treason were entitled to a trial before execution (assuming a finding of guilt).
1. Trump was receptive to a Campaign national security adviser’s (George Papadopoulos) pursuit of a back channel to Putin.
2. Kremlin operatives provided the Campaign a preview of the Russian plan to distribute stolen emails.
3. The Trump Campaign chairman and deputy chairman (Paul Manafort and Rick Gates) knowingly shared internal polling data and information on battleground states with a Russian spy; and the Campaign chairman worked with the Russian spy on a pro-Russia “peace” plan for Ukraine.
4. The Trump Campaign chairman periodically shared internal polling data with the Russian spy with the expectation it would be shared with Putin-linked oligarch, Oleg Deripaska.
5. Trump Campaign chairman Manafort expected Trump’s winning the presidency would mean Deripaska would want to use Manafort to advance Deripaska’s interests in the United States and elsewhere.
6. Trump Tower meeting: (1) On receiving an email offering derogatory information on Clinton coming from a Russian government official, Donald Trump Jr. “appears to have accepted that offer;” (2) members of the Campaign discussed the Trump Tower meeting beforehand; (3) Donald Trump Jr. told the Russians during the meeting that Trump could revisit the issue of the Magnitsky Act if elected.
7. A Trump Campaign official told the Special Counsel he “felt obliged to object” to a GOP Platform change on Ukraine because it contradicted Trump’s wishes; however, the investigation did not establish that Gordon was directed by Trump.
8. Russian military hackers may have followed Trump’s July 27, 2016 public statement “Russia if you’re listening …” within hours by targeting Clinton’s personal office for the first time.
9. Trump requested campaign affiliates to get Clinton’s emails, which resulted in an individual apparently acting in coordination with the Campaign claiming to have successfully contacted Russian hackers.
10. The Trump Campaign—and Trump personally—appeared to have advanced knowledge of future WikiLeaks releases.
11. The Trump Campaign coordinated campaign-related public communications based on future WikiLeaks releases.
12. Michael Cohen, on behalf of the Trump Organization, brokered a secret deal for a Trump Tower Moscow project directly involving Putin’s inner circle, at least until June 2016.
13. During the presidential transition, Jared Kushner and Eric Prince engaged in secret back channel communications with Russian agents. (1) Kushner suggested to the Russian Ambassador that they use a secure communication line from within the Russian Embassy to speak with Russian Generals; and (2) Prince and Kushner’s friend Rick Gerson conducted secret back channel meetings with a Putin agent to develop a plan for U.S.-Russian relations.
14. During the presidential transition, in coordination with other members of the Transition Team, Michael Flynn spoke with the Russian Ambassador to prevent a tit for tat Russian response to the Obama administration’s imposition of sanctions for election interference; the Russians agreed not to retaliate saying they wanted a good relationship with the incoming administration.
Hmmm, I took a quick peek at the Constitution and did not see a due process exception for a traitor. I thought even people accused of treason were entitled to a trial before execution (assuming a finding of guilt).
Don’t pretend this was a judicial proceeding; it was an attack on our government and our democracy. Surely you understand the difference in applicable standards in defending against an attack of this nature and the due process afforded in legal proceedings.
Law enforcement had the right of self defense, and the obligation to defend the Capital, Senators, Representatives, and the Vice President. Don’t storm the seat of our federal government intent on insurrection and you won’t risk getting shot. The only unknown is why the defenders of the Capital did not shoot more of the insurrectionists. It would certainly have been justified, legally and morally. I only hope that Trump and the rest of the traitors who instigated this attack on our democracy are brought to justice, convicted, and incarcerated.
it was an attack on our government and our democracy
I have said, if it was a crime the offenders should by prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Surely you understand the difference in applicable standards in defending against an attack of this nature and the due process afforded in legal proceedings.
I do. You are the one who seems to misunderstand the concept of due process. Due process requires a person charged with a crime to be tried in a courtroom. It is apparently ok with you to have the cop be judge, jury, and executioner of this unarmed woman.
Law enforcement had the right of self defense, and the obligation to defend the Capital, Senators, Representatives, and the Vice President.
I do not think that the Capital City was a risk. If you are talking about the Capitol, I'm pretty sure that deadly force is not recognized as a defense to property. As to the elected officials, they were no where near the scene of the shooting. As to the cop, it's pretty shaky for an armed cop to claim self defense against an unarmed woman. Of course, if the cop is ever tried for this killing he/she would be entitled to raise that as a defense.
Don’t storm the seat of our federal government intent on insurrection and you won’t risk getting shot.
Novel concept - if you don't commit a crime you won't get shot. I wonder how that concept would play out.
The only unknown is why the defenders of the Capital did not shoot more of the insurrectionists. It would certainly have been justified, legally and morally.
I suppose you would have been alright with machine gunning them all - even though the vast majority left the Capitol and the Capitol grounds after being told to leave.
I only hope that Trump and the rest of the traitors who instigated this attack on our democracy are brought to justice, convicted, and incarcerated.
There is a process for this. We will see if prosecutors believe they have the evidence to charge this crime.
